Rogue

The three trees in Forever

• Assassination New: poison focus. Mutilate (21-point, two daggers, 60 Energy, 2 combo points) and Venom (31-point finisher: poisons +30% damage, +10% apply chance, 9 to 21 s).
• Combat: Sinister Strike or Backstab, Riposte (11-point), Blade Flurry (21-point), Adrenaline Rush (31-point). New Hack and Slash replaces the four weapon specs and adds axes.
• Subtlety New: Hemorrhage (+15% Rupture damage taken), Quietus (below 35% health), Cutthroat (Ambush without Stealth), Thousand Cuts (31-point: Rupture ticks cut Backstab/Hemorrhage cost by 3 per stack, max 5).
• New 16-point talents: Cold Blood (Assassination), Flawless Execution (Combat: Eviscerate costs 10 less Energy), Premeditation (Subtlety, now 20 s).
• Talents start at 10. Reset them at a class trainer in a major city.

Roles

• Every spec is melee DPS. There is no rogue tank or healer spec in Forever.
• Group value per Blizzard: Stealth, crowd control and top single-target melee damage.
• New Expose Armor now equals 5 Sunder Armors and no longer blocks a warrior's Sunder.

Best levelling spec: Combat

• Icy Veins and Method both level Combat into Blade Flurry, then Hack and Slash 5/5, Weapon Expertise 2/2, Aggression 3/3, Adrenaline Rush.
• Why: Riposte is a cheap hit off parries, Flawless Execution saves Energy, and Blade Flurry is the rogue's only cleave.
• Use a slow, high-damage main hand for Sinister Strike and Riposte.
• Full point order: see the Builds tab, with the level 60 raid and PvP theory builds.

Rotation (Combat, levelling)

Rotation (Assassination, two daggers)

Rotation (Subtlety)

Stat priority

• New Hit and crit are each one stat for melee, ranged and spells. Precision and Malice now also cover poisons.
• Icy Veins, Combat and Assassination: Expertise > Hit > Agility > weapon damage > Crit.
• Icy Veins, Subtlety: weapon damage > Expertise > Hit > Weapon Skill > Agility.
• ! unconfirmed: the Icy Veins caps (Expertise 6.5%, Hit 8% vs bosses). Only one source, and it is based on Classic theorycraft.
• Levelling: weapon damage first, then Agility (Icy Veins and Method).

Poisons in Forever

• New Every poison has more charges and still lasts 30 min. Watch charges as well as the timer.
• New Poisons stack with sharpening stones and weightstones. Use both.
• You unlock poisons at 20 through a class trainer quest chain.
• Instant and Crippling at 20, Mind-numbing at 24, Deadly at 30, Wound at 32.
• Levelling: Instant on both weapons. Use Crippling for runners.
• Improved Poisons (Assassination) gives poison hits a 50% chance not to use a charge.

World PvP (PvP ruleset)

• You are flagged automatically in contested and enemy zones, which Icy Veins puts at roughly level 15 and up. ! unconfirmed
• New Sap no longer breaks Stealth, so you can Sap and stay hidden.
• New Distract lowers enemy Stealth detection for 10 s, but the debuff tells enemy players a rogue is near (Blizzard).
• Control: Cheap Shot (4 s), Kidney Shot (1 to 5 s), Gouge, Blind (10 s, 5 min). Riposte disarms for 6 s. Improved Kick (Combat) adds a 2 s silence.
• Escapes: Vanish clears slows and roots. Sprint (+50%, 15 s) does not break Stealth.
• Icy Veins' PvP tier list has no rankings yet ("TBD"), but it calls rogue crowd control a big edge in 1v1.

Other changes vs Classic

• New Feint's threat reduction is doubled. Rogues can now use one-handed axes.
• New Mutilate, Venom, Puncturing Wounds (was Improved Backstab), Dirty Tricks (was Improved Sap), Quietus, Cutthroat and Thousand Cuts are new or redesigned.
• New Removed: Sleight of Hand, Deadliness and the four weapon specialisations.
• Improved Gouge moved to Assassination, and Improved Eviscerate moved to Combat.
• New Precision is now 3 ranks for 3% hit. Deflection gives twice as much parry per point. Vigor is a 2-point row-5 talent.
• ! unconfirmed: combo points stay on the target you built them on when you switch, but don't transfer (Icy Veins only).

Horde races (racials as of the 26 and 27 Oct notes)

• Orc, Undead, Troll and Windshaper Skyborne can be rogues. Tauren can't.
• Orc (Icy Veins and Method): Blood Fury +10% AP for 15 s, now 2 min. Hardiness: stuns 20% shorter. Savage (passive crit) was removed on 26 Oct, so ignore guides that still list it.
• Undead (Method): Will of the Forsaken breaks charm, fear and sleep (2 min). Touch of the Grave: 20% chance on hit to drain up to 5% of max health, 15 s internal cooldown.
• Troll: Berserking +10% attack speed for 15 s (3 min). Regeneration +20%. Beast Slaying +5% vs beasts.
• Windshaper Skyborne: Wind Blessed +2% haste, Elemental Insight +5% vs elementals, Skysight +15% run speed for 15 s. Needs the Heroic Pack or higher.
• For world PvP, Will of the Forsaken (fears) and Hardiness (stuns) are the racials that answer crowd control.

Professions

• Skinning + Leatherworking (Icy Veins and Method): leather gear while you level, and Leatherworking makes the Camp Tent.
• First Aid is a must: rogues have no self-heal.
• Cooking unlocks your own campfire.

Gear

• No level-60 or pre-raid BiS list exists yet. The beta capped at 30 from 1 Oct.
• Class quest rewards (Icy Veins and Method): Pyrewood Signet Ring at 20 and Ruby-Adorned Blade at 30. Both are rogue-only. ! Neither source says which faction gets them.

Cooldown Manager

• Off by default: Options, Gameplay Enhancement. It supports rogue, racials and trinkets.
• ! As of 24 Sep it couldn't track poisons (weapon enchants). Recheck on live.

Data note

• The 26 Sep client talent table still shows the old layout: Vigor as the 31-pointer, no Mutilate, Venom or Thousand Cuts. Blizzard's deep dive, Wowhead, Icy Veins and the 29 Oct talentsforever export (build 70630) agree with each other, so this page uses them.
• The client's spell dump has no castable row for Riposte or Adrenaline Rush. Both exist as talents.

Sources Blizzard deep dive · Blizzard beta notes · Wowhead · Icy Veins · Method · Icy Veins PvP · talentsforever

How to load a build

• Each link opens the Icy Veins Forever calculator. Its back and forward buttons step through the build point by point.
• Wowhead Forever calculator: click the points in by hand. Its share string isn't verified for Forever.
• Talents reset at any class trainer in a major city. New Dual spec at 40.
• World PvP: the Combat build has Riposte (6 s disarm) from 20 but skips Improved Kick (2 s silence) and Improved Sprint (Sprint clears slows). The Icy Veins Combat guide's 30 build takes Improved Sprint 1/2.

Levelling: Combat 10-60

Load in calculator

• Then Assassination: Malice 5/5 (43-47), Ruthlessness 3/3 (48-50), Murder 2/2 (51-52), Relentless Strikes (53), Lethality 4/5 (54-57), Cold Blood (58), Vile Poisons 2/5 (59-60).

Levelling notes

• Method's variant: Remorseless Attacks 2/2 first and respec at 30. With daggers, take Puncturing Wounds 3/3 instead of Endurance 2/2 + Lightning Reflexes 1/5.
• The Icy Veins Combat guide's level-30 build differs by one point: Improved Sprint 1/2 instead of Lightning Reflexes 1/5.
• ! unconfirmed: Legacy "Talented" gives extra talent points (Icy Veins says up to 5; Method also mentions extra Legacy points). Icy Veins puts them in Hack and Slash.

The Icy Veins Combat guide's own level-30 build (Improved Sprint 1/2 in place of Lightning Reflexes 1/5):

Dungeon option at 30: Assassination (two daggers)

Load in calculator

• Venom (31-pt) needs 30 points in the tree, so 40 at the earliest.
• Method's Assassination goals after that: Puncturing Wounds 3/3, Vigor 2/2, Seal Fate 5/5, Venom.

Option at 30: Subtlety

Load in calculator

• Icy Veins notes Subtlety feels weak until Ambush at 18.

Raid builds (level 60 theory)

• Level 60 theory, untested: the beta stopped at 30 and raids open 9 Dec. These are wowtbc.gg's Forever builds (final trees, no point order). We swap them for builds from real logs after 9 Dec.
• Blizzard's design intent: Assassination is Mutilate with finishers on Venom and Slice and Dice; Combat is direct damage and Blade Flurry cleave with any weapon; Subtlety is Rupture and Thousand Cuts on a Sinister Strike or a Backstab path.
• Capstones: Venom, Adrenaline Rush, Thousand Cuts (31-point each).

Combat (wowtbc, Sinister Strike, 18/33/0)

Combat with daggers and Backstab (16/33/2):

Assassination (wowtbc Standard, 33/16/2)

Assassination with Blade Flurry for cleave fights (21/29/1):

Subtlety (wowtbc, Backstab path, 12/8/31)

Subtlety on the Hemorrhage path (20/0/31):

PvP build (level 60 theory)

RankedBoost's Subtlety PvP build (5/17/29). One source, low confidence, built from an older client (70450). Recheck in launch week.

Classic Era for comparison

Builds that worked in Classic for years, from Icy Veins (WoW Classic). Classic trees differ from Forever's; the Forever planner marks what changed if you tick "Mark what changed from Classic".

Macros

• Weapon swap (Icy Veins Subtlety). It costs a GCD and resets your swing timer:

#showtooltip
/equipslot 16 SLOW WEAPON NAME
/equipslot 17 DAGGER NAME

• Sinister Strike with a swap to the slow weapon (Icy Veins). Press it twice: once to swap, once to strike after the GCD:

#showtooltip Sinister Strike
/startattack
/equipslot 16 SLOW WEAPON NAME
/equipslot 17 DAGGER NAME
/cast Sinister Strike

• ! Untested on live: a poison macro for each hand (16 = main hand, 17 = off hand):

/use Instant Poison
/use 16

Cooldown Manager layout (suggestion)

• Turn it on: Options, Gameplay Enhancement. Since 16 Oct each spell's ranks show as one entry.
• Main row (check every GCD): Riposte, Adrenaline Rush, Blade Flurry, Cold Blood or Premeditation, your racial (Blood Fury, Berserking or Will of the Forsaken), trinkets.
• Utility row: Kick, Gouge, Kidney Shot, Blind, Vanish, Evasion, Sprint, Preparation.
• Buffs to watch: Slice and Dice, Venom, Blade Flurry, Adrenaline Rush.
• ! As of 24 Sep it couldn't track poisons. Check both weapons' poison charges between pulls.

Sources Blizzard deep dive · Blizzard beta notes · Icy Veins levelling · Icy Veins calculator · Method · Wowhead

New What changed for levelling a rogue

• Energy refills continuously, 10 a second, with no tick to wait for
• Hack and Slash (Combat row 5) replaces the weapon specs: any one-hand works, and New one-handed axes are allowed
• Flawless Execution (16-point talent, 25): Eviscerate costs 10 less Energy
• Sap no longer breaks Stealth: sap a patrol and keep sneaking
• Poisons have more charges and stack with sharpening stones
• Endurance now cuts Sprint and Evasion cooldowns by a percentage: 60% at 2/2, so both drop from 5 min to 2 min
• Levelling tier lists put rogue 7th of 9 (average 2.9 over 10 lists, B to C) ! speculative

Best spec by level

• 10-60: Combat. Icy Veins and Method both level Combat into Blade Flurry, then Adrenaline Rush.
• 10-19: Improved Sinister Strike and Improved Eviscerate make your two main buttons cheaper and harder.
• 20: Riposte, 10 Energy for 150% weapon damage after a parry. Icy Veins calls it a big power spike.
• 25: Flawless Execution. 30: Blade Flurry. 40: Adrenaline Rush (+100% Energy regen, 15 s, 5 min).
• 43-60: Assassination for Malice, Ruthlessness, Relentless Strikes, Lethality and Cold Blood.
• Dungeon option at 30: two-dagger Assassination with Mutilate (Icy Veins, to 30 only): see Rogue builds.

AoE: the honest answer

• Forever gives rogues no AoE ability. The beta spell list has no Fan of Knives or anything like it.
• Blade Flurry (30): +20% attack speed and your melee hits one more nearby enemy for 15 s. 25 Energy, 2 min cooldown.
• That is two targets at most. Blizzard: "little bit of cleave damage". Icy Veins: rogues lack true AoE.
• Pair it with Evasion for two-mob pulls (Icy Veins). With Endurance 2/2 both are on 2 min (our read).
• Big packs are a job for your mage or warlock friends, not you.

Talents: Combat 10-60

• Same order as Rogue builds (Icy Veins). Calculator links are there.
• New 7 rows, 51 points. The 16-point row needs 15 points in the tree, so 25 is the earliest (20 with Talented).
• New Legacy Talented (5/5): points from level 5, still 51 max. Everything above lands 5 levels early: Riposte 15, Blade Flurry 25, Adrenaline Rush 35. See Legacy system.
• New Dual Specialization at 40. Talents reset at a class trainer in a major city.

Rotation: Combat, solo

Stealth, Sap and running away

• Stealth slows you 50% at rank 1, 40% at 20, 35% at 40, 30% at 60: train every rank.
• New Sap (10): humanoids out of combat, 25 s, one at a time, and you stay in Stealth.
• New Distract (22): mobs detect Stealth as if 1 level lower for 10 s. Enemy players see a debuff that warns them.
• Sprint (10): +50% for 15 s and does not break Stealth.
• Vanish (22): clears slows and roots. Needs Flash Powder.
• Blind (34): 10 s, 5 min. Needs Blinding Powder, made from Fadeleaf.
• PvP ruleset: sapping a PvP-flagged player flags you too Beta. More in Rogue guide.

Trainer visits (beta client)

SS = Sinister Strike. Not every rank: this keeps what a Combat leveller presses.

• Always train: Sinister Strike, Eviscerate, Slice and Dice, Stealth (less slow), Sprint, Vanish, Kick, Cheap Shot, Kidney Shot, Blind.
• Skip if you level with a sword, mace or axe: Backstab and Ambush ranks. Both need a dagger in the main hand.
• Low value solo (our read): Feint (threat only), Expose Armor (Method: only if the mob outlives it), Rupture (not in the levelling priority).
• Training costs are not published for Forever.

Class quests (Horde)

• Starter (1-2): Orc "Encrypted Parchment", Troll "Encrypted Tablet": Gornek sends you to Rwag in the Valley of Trials. Undead "Encrypted Scroll" to David Trias, Deathknell. Skyborne "At Home in the Shadows" to Akeri Duskblade, Zephras Isle.
• Weapon at 10: Icy Veins and Method: a trainer quest at 10 gives a strong early weapon. Icy Veins names Blade of Cunning (rogue-only dagger, +2 Agility). The quest depends on race ! which one pays it in Forever is unconfirmed.
  • Orc/Troll: "The Shattered Hand" from Therzok, Cleft of Shadow, Orgrimmar. Kill Tazan at the Southsea camps in The Barrens, then open his satchel with Pick Lock or Gamon's key (pick-pocket Gamon in the Orgrimmar inn).
  • Undead: Wowhead lists "Mennet Carkad" into "The Deathstalkers" ! not on RestedXP's route.
• Lockpicking (mid-teens): Shenthul in the Cleft of Shadow trains Pick Lock and gives "Zando'zan", then "Wrenix of Ratchet", then "Plundering the Plunderers" (steal the Southsea Treasure off the pirate ship south of Ratchet). Thieves' Tools need level 15. Icy Veins puts it at 15.
• Poisons (20): Shenthul: "The Shattered Salute" (/salute him), "Deep Cover" (Taskmaster Fizzule at the Venture Co. tower north of the Sludge Fen, two flares then /salute), "Mission: Possible But Not Probable" (pick-pocket Silixiz's key, kill Gallywix, pick his lockbox; quest level 24, hard), then "Hinott's Assistance": Serge Hinott in Tarren Mill teaches you poisons.
• Pyrewood Signet Ring (20s): "The Horn of Xelthos", rogue-only, both factions, solo: a Shadowfang Keep run, handed in at C's dead drop near Pyrewood Village. Ring: +4 Agility, +4 Stamina, +0.4% hit.
• Ruby-Adorned Blade (30): "The Eye of Bhossca", the follow-up, solo in Scarlet Monastery, same dead drop. Rogue-only sword, 2.3 speed, +3 Agility, +8 Stamina.

Gear and stats

• Weapon damage first: a slow main hand with a high top end feeds Sinister Strike and Riposte (Icy Veins, Method).
• Then Agility. Grab Hit and Expertise whenever they show up: a miss or dodge does nothing (Icy Veins).
• New Hit and crit are each one stat across melee, ranged and spells, and Precision now covers poisons.
• Dual Wield from 10 (Icy Veins, Method). Your best weapon goes in the main hand.
• New Hack and Slash per weapon: sword or axe 5% chance of an extra attack, dagger or fist +5% crit, mace ignores 15% armour.
• Backstab and Ambush need a main-hand dagger and you behind the mob. Method: Sinister Strike is always better with a non-dagger.
• RestedXP's Forever route buys vendor upgrades: a Stiletto in Brill, two Scimitars in Ratchet, a Longsword in Stonetalon or Thunder Bluff, and throwing axes.

Worth a detour (Icy Veins, Method, stats from Wowhead)

• Butcher's Slicer: sword, 2.9 speed, req 18, Razorclaw the Butcher in Shadowfang Keep
• Seal of Sylvanas: ring, +8 Stamina, +6 AP, "Arugal Must Die" (Shadowfang Keep)
• Serrated Raptor Claw: dagger, +3 Agility, +6 AP, a Horde quest inside Excavation Site
• Cruel Barb: VanCleef, The Deadmines
• Plus the two class quest rewards above

Professions and consumables

• Skinning + Leatherworking: cheap leather upgrades as you go, and the Camp Tent (rested XP to 5% of a level).
• First Aid is a must. Bandages beat eating, and Blind buys you a bandage mid-fight (Icy Veins).
• Cooking: your own campfire, and New crafted food adds +5% kill XP Beta. Rogues need food only, no water.
• Thistle Tea: Cooking 60 (Swiftthistle + Refreshing Spring Water), instantly restores 100 Energy, 5 min cooldown. Rogue or Druid only.
• Camp buffs for melee: Camp Chair (Skinning, 2% crit), Lodestone (Mining, melee AP), Fish Bowl (Fishing, 8% stats).
• New Sharpening stones now stack with poisons. RestedXP trains Mining for rogues to make them.
• Legacy picks that suit a rogue (our read): Thrill of Adventure (up to 5% health back per kill, not in dungeons) and Reagent Economy (no Flash Powder to buy).
• Pick Pocket (4): junkboxes exist in Forever's item data, but no source measures coin or box drops yet ! treat it as a bonus.

Macro (test at launch)

• Pick Pocket, then the opener, on one key. If Pick Pocket triggers the global cooldown in Forever, press it twice:

#showtooltip Garrote
/cast Pick Pocket
/cast Garrote

• Weapon swap macros: see Rogue builds.

Common mistakes

• Opening with Cheap Shot before 26 or Ambush with a sword. Garrote (14) is your opener until then.
• Blade Flurry next to a sapped or gouged mob: the extra hit breaks it (our read: both break on damage).
• Running out of Flash Powder, so no Vanish when it matters.
• Checking the poison timer but not the charges.
• Sapping a flagged Alliance player and flagging yourself Beta.
• Skipping First Aid. Rogues have no self-heal.

Fast route

• Orc/Troll Durotar to 10 then Tirisfal, Undead Tirisfal, Skyborne Zephras Isle; all rogues Silverpine 12-14, The Barrens, then Stonetalon/Ashenvale to 22: see "Horde 1-22" in Levelling. Past 22 use "22-60: zones by level" there.
• Rogue detours on RestedXP's Forever route:
  • 12-17: Orgrimmar, Cleft of Shadow (Pick Lock, "Zando'zan", Orc/Troll "The Shattered Hand")
  • 17-22: Thunder Bluff (Maces, trainer Boarton Shadetotem), then Orgrimmar and the Sludge Fen tower for the poison chain
• Our suggestion: the poison chain ends in Tarren Mill and the Horn of Xelthos sits near Pyrewood, so do both on one trip north.

Dungeons for a rogue

• Ragefire Chasm (13-18): Chanting Blade (Agility dagger) from Jergosh. Fills the Ragefire-or-Hall-of-Thanes Legacy slot.
• Wailing Caverns (15-24): Tail Spike (dagger) from Skum.
• Ruins of Lordaeron (15-20): Meathook Slicer (dagger) from The Baron.
• Shadowfang Keep (20-30): Butcher's Slicer, Seal of Sylvanas, and the Horn of Xelthos. The best rogue stop before 30.
• The Deadmines (Westfall, Alliance ground): Cruel Barb, and it is needed for the 15-25 Legacy point.
• Excavation Site (24-29): Serrated Raptor Claw quest.
• Scarlet Monastery (30s): Eye of Bhossca, solo. Blackfathom Deeps: Darkwater Talwar (sword).
• Blizzard keeps dungeon cleaving from being the fastest XP. Run each once with its quests. Full list: Dungeons.

Unverified until launch

• Everything past 30: the beta stopped there.
• Which quest pays Blade of Cunning, and the Undead class chain.
• "The Manor, Ravenholdt" is in Wowhead's Forever data at quest level 24, but Icy Veins lists the Ravenholdt line at 50.
• Pick Pocket coin and junkbox rates.

Sources Blizzard deep dive · Blizzard dev notes · Icy Veins levelling · Method · Wowhead DB · talentsforever · RestedXP · ConquestCapped